Author Topic: Don't know how lucky they are  (Read 182 times)

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Offline The Laird Of Glencairn, Scotland

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Don't know how lucky they are
« on: November 10, 2018, 09:56:13 PM »
Hi everyone,
On Friday I was at the same hospital where my wife died in January and while waiting for my appointment I sat in the main waiting room which wasn't too busy so quiet enough to hear a pin drop at times so whenever anyone spoke everyone could hear. Well on the seats in front of me were a husband and wife around my age, I know everyone's marriages aren't all brilliant but the way they were talking to each other was pretty bad. They argued about everything, scowled and made nasty comments about other people there.....one thing that really touched a nerve was when he said to her "Wish you would drop dead and stop moaning at me"  :shocked:  why would you want to be in such a relationship where you say such things?.......they don't know how lucky they are!  there's me sat their wishing that Ruth would appear and sit next to me even for a minute  :cray: and probably many others sitting there wishing they were fitter or their loved ones would get well.....I felt like saying to them "At least you will be going home from here unlike my wife" Fortunately it was my last lot of treatment there and I won't have to endure hearing idiots like them again. I felt crap anyway from the treatment but once home felt even worse walking into an empty house.......thank god i have got Wee Rory. some of you might be aware of my anxiety/panic attacks probs and being a virtual recluse for years and I have been pushing myself to try and integrate with society since Ruth's death and done ok at times but the more i see what the real world is like I know why i became a recluse......these are nasty times with people being nasty to each other.....not sure if i believe in God as he only seems to take the best people away from their loved ones yet nasty people live much longer lives. Oh well sorry for the miserable post but its out now and maybe my head will stop banging now.
Anyway pets always cheer you up so here's a recent photo of Rory with his haircut (I get his hair cut shorter so i can groom him easier otherwise it will trail in the muddy fields)

Offline Emz2014

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2018, 08:31:21 AM »
I dont understand those either, like the couples you see having a cuppa or meal looking miserable and not talking to each other.  Maybe there is a god and he doesnt want that type of people around him!  :undecided:   I try and remember how lucky I've been to find what they dont have - its better to have a period of happiness than a lifetime of misery

How is it going with tackling your anxiety/panic?  I agree there's plenty of rubbish people out there, but there are a few diamonds who would make great friends, you just have to uncover them  :hearts:

Hope you're feeling a bit better from your treatment. I think when we go through things like that it makes us miss our loved ones more. Rory is such a cutie xx
Even the darkest night will end and the sun will rise. 
Hold on in there xx

Offline The Laird Of Glencairn, Scotland

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2018, 10:26:39 PM »
Aye Emz,
I have seen plenty of miserable couples ok some will have good reason to look miserable especially at hospitals but i can't figure out all they hate they seem to dish out to each other instead of supporting each other in bad times. Telling each other to drop dead is a corker and makes you wonder what they would do if they did drop dead? would they suddenly be heartbroken or would they continues dishing the hate?.
I agree with ya about being lucky to find our loved ones its something some people will never know. As far as the anxiety and panic attacks go I have made some progress and I'm sure Ruth would be impressed to see some of the things i have been doing......like the hospital stuff as one time i wouldn't go in the door of the GP's or Hospital etc but have forced myself to do it by basically saying Ruth may be watching and i cannot let her down and even though i want to run/hide i got sorted. I have had quite a few setbacks including getting banned from Aldi  :rofl: have to laugh as its not much street cred to a gert big Biker but thanks to 2 panic attacks in the last few months the last one i was shopping there and filling my trolley when for no reason i started having a panic attacks and basically had to leave asap so i abandoned my trolley and headed for the exit (which is exactly the same as i did 2 months earlier) but this time it was different as i was stopped by a silly little man called store security :whistle: who instead of letting me leave decided to stand in front of the doors so i asked him politely to let me past and he didn't agree....so i asked him politely again nope he wasn't moving so i suggested to him that if he didn't let me pass i would put him through the 12ft windows and hey presto he saw sense and stepped aside while saying i was banned from the store  :rofl: in some ways i am ashamed of what i did but I can see the funny side of getting banned from a sodding supermarket. I must say on both occasions i didn't nick anything i just abandoned my trolley...i might be a bit odd but i have no need to nick stuff. So yeah Emz not exactly perfect but will continue trying to reintegrate with society (but shop at Lidl instead) I haven't a clue why the panic attacks start and its not just out and about i have them at home especially when door bell rings or phone rings.....it all goes back many years to when i had to retire from my work, won't go into details but that was when the anxiety really started but think it could go way back when i was younger but when your in your 20's you feel invincible and if you have a job you love and can do ok you probably feel more confident and i did and then it ended and hello its Brian the fruitcake. I managed to keep my anxiety problem very well hidden from most people including my family they used to think i was ignorant as i avoided family events but in reality i was terrified and only Ruth knew the real me.....she was the one who helped me to get help and will continue to keep trying and hopefully she will be up there watching me and probably laughing at me getting banned from a supermarket lol. What i will admit though is its quite easy for me to say these things on here but i am terrified if it was face to face.....sounds a bit sad a great lump like me terrified of people but have a long way to go me thinks. I suppose as you get more confident things will get easier with time and being only 30 i have plenty of time left? :rofl: ok did i say i lie about my age? lol well mentally i am 30 but physically i am 90 lol. So there you have it.....made some progress and will try and continue and not get banned from any other stores I know there are loads of people doing the same things but like myself try and fix it themselves and keep it to themselves which i now know isn't always the best way of coping. I feel like a real pillock writing all this but i am fed up of pretending things are fine. I have met some lovely people on here and i think its because we all share one common thing.....we have lost loved ones way too soon and only when you have lost someone do you really understand how its like being hit with a hammer.
Ps your right Rory is a cutie and doesn't he know it, he's recently started singing.....only to one song/video on the TV its a song called "Diane" by a female country singer called "Cam" and whenever the video comes on he jumps up and sits in front of the TV and sings along lol  he only does it to that song and once it ends he goes back to sleep......very strange little fella.

Offline Emz2014

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 09:22:43 AM »
What a stupid security man! They should have a little more awareness as I'm sure panic attacks are quite common in supermarkets! 

Continuing to make little steps forward is definitely a good way, like climbing the stairs, one step at a time. And remember to acknowledge all the successes, no matter how small a step you might think it is
I know a helpful technique for panic attacks, I can share if that would be helpful? And a breathing technique, if you like - which has helped me through panic attacks. I had a horrid attack a couple of Christmasses ago, I had caught a bad cold and part way through eating some nibbles late afternoon I lost the hearing in one ear and went into a full blown panic. I had to go in the garden, look up at the stars and do the breathing.  I have noticed it has set a bit of a pattern now though, if my ears feel anything like getting near blocked I can feel panic rising, so I'm working on that xx
Even the darkest night will end and the sun will rise. 
Hold on in there xx

Offline Sandra61

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 05:18:01 PM »
Ah, Rory looks really sweet! I bet it makes you laugh to hear him sing! Pets are a blessing. There is a cat that lives at the top of my road and if he sees me when I have to park up there sometimes, he follows me all the way back down the road, stopping me from time to time to make me stroke him, then, when we get to the front door, he has to be first in. Then he wanders all round the house inspecting everywhere, gets me to make a bit more fuss of him, then goes back to the door to be let out, like he's saying 'ok, that's all in order. I can go now!' He often sits in my garden and on the window ledge too. I've seen his owner come in and pick him up to take him home a couple of times! Not sure he likes him spending time at mine!

So sorry you are having the panic attacks. My niece gets them too, usually as a result of stress. SHe does the breathing exercises too and finds them helpful, so maybe you could try that if you don't already.

What you say about the couple reminds me of a complaining patient I had to speak to shortly after I went back to work after my mum died. Unfortunately it's part of my job to deal with complaints. I couldn't say anything to calm or placate him. He just went on ranting. I remember thinking, in light of the fact that my mum had just died, how trivial his complaint was. Can't recall what he was complaining about now. What I do remember is him saying to me 'I wish you'd get ill and die' , at which point I ended the call and put the phone down on him, then burst into tears at my desk. I don't think people know what they are saying or consider what anyone else might be going through before they do.

You are so right. There are so many horrible people out there. Sometimes it's hard to remember that there are probably a lot of really nice ones too. So glad your treatment has ended and do hope you will be feeling better soon. It is tempting to become a recluse to me at times too, but I do try to counterbalance that view with the fact that I have also met a couple of nice new friends since my mum died, who have been really kind and supportive. I am learning in time to be able to recognise the ones who won't be and keep my distance from them. I suppose we all grow in experience of how to size people up as we get older and identify the ones we can do without!

I expect the value for money is probably better at Lidl than Aldi anyway! Happy shopping!

Offline Karena

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 01:21:56 PM »
being local too it -i can see maybe why Aldi staff elsewhere might have been nervous or have it drummed into them to be extra vigilant about anything that they see as different behaviour  -as one of their staff was killed by a knifeman in the store near here last year - not that i am saying that you are, or look like a maniac in any way  :hug: -or that it excuses the accusation that went with it, i think it would be a good idea if as part of their customer service training things like panic attacks are covered especially as the supermarkets do seem to be places that can trigger them - certainly for me anyway - but maybe the over-bearing behaviour towards you in Aldi was because of the nervousness of the staff, in addition to lack of knowledge or empathy.

Generally i think we become very sensative towards what other people say and do - triviality - when i came back to work one of the MD,s was muttering about an argument between him and his wife over the colour of kitchen cupboards - and my brain was just screaming at me to tell him to shut up go home give his mrs a cuddle and let her have any kitchen cupboard she wants because if he lost her he wouldnt care about it at all.
things that feel hurtful - two older ladies  in a charity shop talking about their hubbys who they had left at home - one of them said of hers he is a blumming nuisance hanging around making comments - now i know that it probably wasnt meant in any way other than while shopping - i also know it may be something i could have said myself sometimes -but at the time again the brain scream was saying just be b*** grateful you still have him to hang around being a nuisance. Both times i just walked away so no-one saw the tears.

IN the MD,s case he is young and hasnt lost anyone and i think not knowing what to say and trying to normalise the situation was the aim - and in a business where conversation is usally about computers and software any attempt at a conversation about kitchen cupboards was done from kind intentions - better that than people ignoring you  even if they are misguided there was absolutely no intention to hurt.
and the lady in the shop didnt know me from adam so again no intention to hurt -

but we are more aware of how we can take people for granted and use words that are not always as loving as they could be towards each other.or about it each other - because even though people have very different relationships and maybe ours was more gentle and loving than some-one elses in appearance, theirs isnt necessarilly one without love either  - its just  we are more sensative to things like this when we are grieving and so pick it up much more than we have before -

Perhaps in a way if there is anything at all to gain from this nightmare world of grief,  this is something that we can turn to a positive about ourselves because  perhaps this awareness means that maybe we chose our own words and actions much more carefully around others even strangers and then become even more  those nicer more understanding people

Sandra i love the cat story -there is a ginger one near me who seems to wait for me to go that way home in the dark then comes out to greet me as i pass the darkest bit  - made me jump out of my skin at first but now i think of him as a bit of a guardian just letting me know he has my back (and i am not normally even into cats  :rofl:) I was thinking the other day about my routine in the morning - feed the rescued fish, feed the half tame wild birds - that covers the air and the water - but there is nothing landbased in the menagerie except when i have the holiday dogs - maybe i should get a chicken,a rabbit or a  cat even -but then my heart comes back to dogs - how will a dog react to those - i dont want a bloodbath on my hands  and i dont want to be dog free all the time either - i once told my daughters i would get some chickens - but they both pointed out that i was going to look pretty dumb sitting in a vets waiting room with a chicken in a basket (not in the 70,s pub meal sense -with chips) - it would probably cost a fortune in vets bills because i was never going to actually bring myself to "neck" one for any reason  - and of course theyre right i couldnt so i went off that idea too. :rofl: along with lizards - because i am not keeping whole dead mice in the freezer -or feeding them live crickets.I supose i will just have to stick to the frogs in the pond - theyre semi landbased and apart from taking the frogspawn inside in a bucket when it freezes after they lay it -and letting the grass grow when theyre leaving so i dont mow them - dont take much looking after. :rofl:

Offline The Laird Of Glencairn, Scotland

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 09:10:41 PM »
Cheers everyone, Its nice to know ya don't all think i am the village idiot (we have more than one so i have company lol)
Emz you mentioned your ears going funny, well one of the things i have noticed when i can feel a panic attack coming is all sound starts to go muffled so you can tell people are talking and hear other sounds but very muffled and cannot tell what words are being said (which might be a good thing) and then my eyes do a similar thing but the easiest way to describe it is any people moving seem to speed up and coming from different directions a bit like insects in a way and then i have to get away asap hence abandoning the trolleys.
Any way I will be getting the majority of my food shopping via Asda now as they will deliver and I will still go in other shops apart from Aldi of course and i won't need a trolley if i am just buying a few items so i can be in and out much quicker and less chance of me having a panic attack there. I have made quite a lot of progress as i dare go in the local shops and some of the locals are starting to recognise me (no'one knew i lived here when i was a recluse hence reason were making comments when they heard of Ruth's death but they didn't know the guy sitting in the doctors waiting room was her husband, they never said anything bad about her she had loads of friends here and they were all shocked.....if it had been myself who had died I wouldn't get a mention apart from isn't he the one banned from Aldi lol)
In the local shops I even chat to some of them and to tell ya the truth i am actually terrified when i do and hopefully they won't notice if i keep the chats short. It does make ya feel a prat.
I know what Karen was saying is spot on about the supermarket staff and i was really aware it was a Aldi store in Skipton where the staff member was murdered, good job i wasn't buying an axe in Aldi as i had been looking at garden tools including axes and machetes so maybe i scared them?  they are perfectly safe with me unless they hurt any animals as i am a big softy nowadays. I remember once on holiday there was a lovely ginger cat that used to go for a walk to the lighthouse every evening with us he was a real cutie and purred all the time....there's nothing like animals to cheer you up.
Right best sod off before i start putting ya to sleep
Bye and take care x :hug:

Offline Cinn

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2018, 10:46:57 PM »
Hi,
I hope you are feeling better since your initial post. I occasionally have panic attacks,  the last one was almost 2 wks ago in my car and i think i was just politely ignored by passersby,  by when it happens in public it can be white distressing.

I completely agree with you how sad and angry it makes me feel to witness people being so unkind and thoughtless to one another, especially to their family members.  Years ago,  before i met my late husband,  i was feeling very depressed that i couldnt even find someone to share a cup of coffee with.  Married co-workers complained daily to one another how annoyed they were about having to pick up after and do things for their spouses and children.  One day I'd had enough and in tears said to them,  "You have no idea how lucky you are to have people to come home to who love you,  people to shop and cook for,  people to pick up after. I am desperately lonely sometimes,  and i would love to have someone else's dirty socks to pick up. Count your blessings." It was uncharacteristic of me to speak up,  but i was glad i did because i never hear them complain again.

My late husband was a bit messy when he got ill, and he apologized but I told him I was really happy to have him there to clean up after,  and i would never complain about it.   One day we were discussing househild things and he confessed to me that he purposely left his clothes on the floor so i could pick up after him, knowing he might not live much longer.  Id give anything to have him  and his dirty clothes back. I waited so long for him,  i am glad that i can say i never took one minute with him for granted. I wish i could pass on that feeling of gratitude, and the grief i have now, when i witness others being so unkind to one another.

Thank you for sharing your stories, and cute little Rory.

Offline The Laird Of Glencairn, Scotland

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2018, 11:46:44 PM »
Aye its very strange and unsettling when you lose someone you love and with Ruth it all happened within 24hrs she was perfectly fit until then, she had been visiting her father in the same hospital the previous week and started with what they said was the flu virus.....on the friday evening she was having breathing problems so i called the NHS 24 who said my GP won't do house visits at 1am so said if she is having breathing problems they will send an ambulance which they did 50 minutes later the paramedics said don't bother going with her as they will probably send her home at dinnertime the next day (I was also looking after my father in law) so off she went and at 1pm the next day the telephoned me to say she can come home and i will have to come and collect her so off i went and when i saw her she looked terrible and told them i can't take her home like that she's obviously too poorly so they said she cannot stay there as there's not enough beds and she would be better off at home......i spent 3 hours trying to persuade them to keep her in but they refused so i took her home (they told me to give her some Gaviscone and Vicks inhaler for her cold) 6 hours later she was dead!........an ambulance came and i had to follow them but as it was blizzards at 1am and i had never driven for 10yrs or in snow i arrived 30 minutes after the ambulance and when i walked into the A&E they walked upto me and said " Sorry we couldn't save her"  and that was it.........they left me sat next to her still on a trolley. And that was the start of the nightmare which a long story but its 10 months on and i am still stunned....she should be here with me and Rory  she had a flu jab too but thanks to our GP's they had a choice of 3 jabs and they went for the cheapest which was also the most useless one available. One of the things she loved to watch was 24hrs A&E and she had got so good at spotting patients symptoms on there she was beating the sodding doctors lol and the other day i was watching the same programme and they had a 94 year old lady with more health problems than i have ever seen and she looked like it was just a matter of time before one of them killed her........she went into hospital and 4 days later she was out of hospital heading to Spain via France with her son......yet Ruth couldn't be saved? she had been out chasing sheep around our carpark they day before she died and could outwalk anyone yet she died? it just doesn't seem right. I have loads of questions but they won't give me any answers that explain.....the Locum on duty has been banned since which seems odd. I get the feeling that someone didn't do their jobs right that weekend. I really do feel like I have let her down (as do some of her relatives) the main reason I don't sleep is i am continually going over and over in my head what happened and if i can remember anything else that might explain why she died.........I know its a bad road to take but i really don't know how i can continue until i get some answers    it won't bring her back nor ease the pain but it might confirm that i did everything possible to help her. Sorry for being a miserable sod but just realised its a very similar night Saturday and gritters have just driven past our farm track. If there is a god why doesn't he take all the horrible murderers etc instead of our loved ones who didn't harm anyone. Oh well off out Owl spotting the cold air might clear my head.....take care and in time we might all have some peace x
ps you mention it would be nice to do your husbands washing etc.....earlier on i was only thinking why do i keep making meals for two? I used to love doing the cooking for Ruth....when i met her she had a brand new unused cooker as she went to her Mums for her meals because she hated cooking so i guess she enjoyed having her own chef lol its the little things that get to ya.

Offline Cinn

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2018, 03:32:05 AM »
Thank you for understanding and responding so kindly. I am so sorry for your loss, and for all these long months feeling that you let Ruth down.  From where i stand, it appears you did everything that was reasonable and rational to do.  Perhaps the medical personnel should have, could have responded differently, and perhaps the outcome would have been different.  It must seem extremely unfair to you, to say the least, that your dear wife was fine one day and gone the next. Im sorry that you didnt even get to say a final goodbye to Ruth before she passed. Im sorry they just left you there with her on the trolley without an acknowledgement of your grief.

I am struggling with guilt and regret myself over the way my husband died. Although my Daniel had been sick for a number of years, he had been in hospital for surgery and released just the week before he died, and we both had a sense of being given another chance at life and that ultimately he would beat his illness.  Neither of us expected that he would be dead the next week. He went back to the hospital as an emergency 7 days after he was released. I know neither of us expected that when he left home this last time that he wouldnt be coming back. The first doctor to look at him wanted to discount his symptoms and send him home. I argued that he was too ill, that something was really wrong, and thats when they discovered his blood pressure was low, he had sepsis, and loss of kidney function. He went downhill from there.   I firmly believe that Daniel had an adverse reaction to drugs they gave him for anxiety and tremors,  and the doctors ttreated the symptoms of that adverse reaction more than the sepsis and kidney problems. They kept giving him more of the same drugs and the symptoms they were treating continued to get worse. I spoke to his doctors about it but they dismissed it as unlikely that it was caused by the anxiety meds even though he had a similar adverse reaction to a similar anxiety med at home 3 months prior. I firmly believe the doctors inadvertently caused his death, but i feel tremendously awful because i feel that i really let Daniel down. I didnt fight the doctors hard enough, i didnt put my foot down, i agreed to certain treatments (heavy sedation, anti-seizure med, intubation) that the doctors recommended but ultimately i believe made things worse and worse. I feel terribly guilty, sad, and angry that if i had been more outspoken and made different choices in the hospital Daniel might still be alive. I would love for a medical expert to be able to tell me that i am wrong, but i doubt that will happen. I am haunted by those final days, and most especially upset thinking about what he was experiencing that last day.

It is just over a week since he passed and my grief is very raw, but i think i will go to my own grave feeling that i let Daniel down. I cant console myself that his death that day was inevitable or that he was ready to go. I cant console myself that it isnt my fault. I worry that he needlessly suffered in the end, and fought as hard as he could but i didnt realize at the time what he was experiencing and that i needed to do something and be more insistent with the doctors.

My dad counseled me that no matter the circumstances i would find something to second-guess, that the doctors did what they could and it was just his time.  I think he is right, but i also think i am right. I cant shake the horrible thought that i am responsible for my dear husband dying, that i let down my best friend when it mattered most.

But i would pass my dads wisdom on to you, that no matter the circumstances regarding Ruth you would probably still second-guess yourself.  Im sure you did your best at the time, and what made sense. Im sorry youre feeling the way you feel, but youre certainly not alone. Thank you for helping me feel less alone.

And yes, it is the little things. I went to a restaurant yesterday and suddenly remembered how only a month earlier Daniel had joyfully driven in circles in their parking lot and sang to me, and made me laugh. Today putting on makeup i remembered that just days before he died i caught Daniel shyly watching me from bed as i got ready to go out.  And today i found one of his dirty socks under the bed.

Thank you, and peace be with you.


Offline Karena

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Re: Don't know how lucky they are
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2018, 12:12:14 PM »
Cinn Your dad is right when you turn something like that on its head you can see that an opposite action would still leave you feeling guilty - my husband asked me to take him home i called an ambulance instead and he never got to go home again - at the time i was feeling so very guilty about that -i had gone against his request and he ended up dying in a place he really hated.But some-one here then said how would i feel if i hadnt called an ambulance - i would always wonder whether they could have done something to save him - he was staying with his daughter and she felt guilty that she hadnt called one earlier but waited for me to decide what to do -she couldnt understand why i wasnt blaming her, he died of a second stroke but because of the first one the disabilitys created by that meant it was difficult to know he was having another and she would also have been under pressure from him not too.In the end whichever choice had been made the outcome would have been the same, that doesnt stop the guilt especially in the early days but over time you realise that you can only decide what you feel is best at the time - we cant forsee outcomes in these situations but act only from love and trying to make the best choices we can.
If the doctors sugested a treatment how could you have known whether it was right or wrong - you are not a doctor and even if you were it would be very different with some-one you loved to make a clinical decision you would not have been allowed to make it yet they expect some-one with no medical background to do so, and if you had chosen differently you would now be wondering whether you should have made the choice you did - you may also have been over-ruled anyway, as i was, on whether to resusitate if he needed it -when going off for scans etc  - i had said yes because after the first stroke and despite the problems he was left with he had a good quality of life and i thought it could be the same this time, what happens in a corridor on the way to a scan isnt the same as making the decisions based on the scan result - but then they came in and told me they had made a clinical decision not too anyway it turned out not to be relevant it wasnt needed but i still think i made the right decision at that moment based on what i knew,  maybe they knew something i didnt but if thats the case why not tell me, that is a question i have come to accept will never be answered but in the early days found it hard to do so.

Brian with Ruth if you had continued to refuse to take her home they would still have discharged her and if you werent there have stuck her in a taxi  - imagine how awful that journey would have been for her, but because you took her home she was looked after on that journey and when you got home - what else could you have possibly done  the two of you might have been stuck on a plastic chair in a hospital corridor and still not received the medical care that was needed , or they may have called security and evicted you from the building in which case you would still have taken her home.

Those relations were not there they did not see what happened - they are looking for some-one to blame and it is falling on the wrong person - where were they when your father in law needed looking after and Ruth and you had to do everything for him, where were they full stop  - how often did they even visit let alone give the two of you any respite -why didnt they turn up to help out   - perhaps they feel guilty , but rather than face their own guilt chose to blame you even though you are blamelss - i know you would have done eveything you possibly could for Ruth despite your anxiety etc, but they see that as a wound they can prod away at - what kind of person does that to some-one. But for them as long as, their nasty comments load the guilt onto you, they dont have to think about their own behaviour.  :hug: